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Aborting Children of Rape
Any child conceived by rape or child abuse should be aborted immediately, preferably with a morning after pill. If you are squeamish and raise the child, you are helping to spread rapist/child abuse genes. You are making the problem worse for the next generation. It is sadism to force a child to endure labour not to mention dangerous. Further, you will forever resent the child for a crime he had no part in.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Abortion and Crime
Researchers noticed a peculiar pattern. When an individual state or the country as a whole relaxed abortion laws, 16 years later there was a drastic drop in crime in 16 year olds, but not those older. Why would this be? When you force a single mother to bear a child she does not want and whom she cannot afford to raise, that child gets an inferior upbringing is a lower class neighbourhood. If she is permitted to abort that child and later when she had husband and financial security, she could afford to bring a child up in a better neighbourhood with better schools give it more attention. The reason crime drops is that the kids that would most likely become criminals are simply not born. They don’t exist to commit crimes. The movie Freakonomics documents this.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Abortion and The Soul
Anti-abortionists base their view on the bible claiming the soul enters the body at conception and the fetus becomes a full-fledged human. One of the big problems with that, other than there being no evidence for it, is the bible says no such thing. The Jewish tradition is that the fetus under 45 days old is only water. From then until birth it is considered a limb of the mother. So, ironically, a truly biblical view of abortion would permit killing a baby moments before birth, something almost no pro-choice advocate would accept.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Abortion and Souls
The pro-life position on abortion is based on Catholic theology that posits souls enter the cell at conception. Blood cells do not have souls. However, as the blastula divides, the soul expands to live in all the cells of the growing fetus. This supposition, to the Catholic mind, implies a fertilised egg is logically equivalent to a full grown human. This is all blithering nonsense, pure supposition without a shred of scientific evidence to support it. However, the doctrine is used to justify killing doctors, mothers and fetuses who refuse to accept Catholic dogma. It should be possible to get restraining orders against Catholics who try to impose their religious dogma on others. Freedom of religion implies freedom from other peoples’ religions.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Christians pretend you have a choice between legal abortion or no abortion. Not so. The choice is between legal abortion and illegal abortion.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Abortion Cut Off Point
Brain activity in the fetus begins at week 26. That would make a rational cut off point for abortion.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Abortion Cuts Crime
When crime started to drop in the 1990s, everyone puzzled why until statistician Steven Levitt showed that half the cause was relaxed abortion law. With fewer unwanted kids born, with fewer kids born into poverty, there were, 20 years later, fewer young criminals, but just as many older ones. Every child deserves a home that can support it and where it is wanted.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Pro-lifers make the mistake of trying to sell Jesus as part and parcel of their pro-life message. People who have not already bought into Jesus are no more likely to do so than swallow a pail of vomit. There are some non-religious pro-life arguments. The pro-lifers would get much further using them when trying to convince non-religious people.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Abortion is a decision that affects the entire rest of your life and also the entire lives of any children. You want to make the decision with the most accurate information possible. Let’s assume your doctor says you have been exposed to Zika. You are pregnant and your child will likely be microcephalic. You might want to volunteer to look after a Zika child for a week to discover:
- Are you up to the task?
- Do you enjoy looking after such a child?
- Could you love such a child?
- Do you have the financial resources to house, feed and care for such a child?
- Do you think you could continue providing such care for another 40 years?
- Is the child so miserable, they would rather not have been born?
- After you get too old to care for the child, what happens next? Can you arrange suitable care?
You want to find out exactly what the fetus you are considering aborting looks like and what it is capable of doing. In general, if you are considering abortion, do not procrastinate. Every day you stall, the closer the fetus is to being a child.
Religious people tell you that all abortion is wicked, even if it is done to save the mother or to prevent the birth of a severely deformed child. They believe a soul enters the child at conception. In popular Christianity, god thus considers a fertilised egg equivalent to a newborn baby. Like a slaveowner, god has title to all humans and he does not appreciate anyone aborting any of them for any reason.
According to the bible Exodus 21:22-25, killing of a fetus is a civil crime — an eye for a eye. Killing of the mother a capital crime. The fetus does not become a person until first breath. Yet another view: the Jewish tradition grants full personhood only 30 days after birth. Until 40 days after conception, the fertilized egg is considered as mere fluid.
But the religious people just made this all up, god, time of personhood, god’s ownership, god’s distaste for abortion… Nobody has ever seen, weighed or detected a soul (or god for that matter). A newly conceived embryo is smaller than a bit of pond scum. The fuss over it is as ridiculous as weeping over the loss of a blood cell. Life does not begin with conception. At no point does non-living matter become living. Life is eternal and continuous. It is an unending splitting and joining together of cells as old as time. Even conception is just the merging of two already-living cells (a sperm and an egg) to form one fatter living cell.
The body naturally aborts far more fetuses than there are babies born. The mother does not notice because the fetus is so small. Usually, the fetus aborts because it fails to attach to the uterine wall. How could something that happens naturally be the equivalent of murder?
Christians have been dishonestly imposing their religious beliefs on everyone by disguising them as scientific fact.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Abortion Dishonest Terminology
The anti-abortion people have gotten away with forcing their views into law by using language like unborn child to conjure up an image of a newborn while referring to a fertilised egg. The deception succeeds through deliberate confusion and lazy ignorance.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Abortion for the Rich
What the religious right really wants is abortion for the rich, in strict secrecy, maintaining a public pretence of virtue. They want everyone else to be forced to use illegal back alley abortions as punishment for their sins of being poor and pregnant.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
The pro life and pro choice forces will forever be at loggerheads. The pro-choice people see a fetus as the tadpole it appears to be. The pro life forces see it as the adult it may one day become. The pro-lifers not only want to stop abortions, they want the mothers to bear the fetus to term, even at severe risk to their health and to raise the child to adulthood. They would make a more convincing case of their sincerity if they were willing to raise the fetuses through surrogate motherhood and to raise the children. They seem to loose all interest the welfare of the child the instant it is born. They seem far more interested in punishing the mother for an unwanted pregnancy than they do in protecting the fetus.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Abortion as Religion Superstition
Catholic views on abortion, (though many of them are not bright enough to notice) depend on belief in a soul. Without a soul, a freshly fertilised egg is no more a human than a cell scraped from your cheek. There is no evidence souls exist much less that they possess freshly fertilised eggs in a process similar to demonic possession. Souls are a religious superstition. Abortion law needs to be based on facts, not superstitions. Christians have fobbed their nutty religious beliefs on the entire nation. Freedom of religion in the constitution should forbid it.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
When pro-choice and anti-abortion factions clash horns what tactics do they use? The pro-choice people:
- Show diagrams of fetuses at various ages and present evidence for when various capabilities emerge.
- Argue for legal vs illegal abortion.
- Argue for women’s right to control what happens in her body.
The anti-abortion people:
~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
- Picket clinics and shout at women.
- Threaten and sometimes kill women seeking abortions or abortion doctors.
- Use dishonest terminology such as unborn child to refer to a blastula or partial birth abortion to refer to any third trimester abortion.
- Use bombs and arson.
- Attempt to impose religion doctrines on non-believers.
- Use inaccurate terms like murderers (one who kills in an unlawful way) to characterise those who disagree with them.
Abortion vs Contraception
Republicans claim to be opposed to abortion. The best possible way to reduce abortion is effective contraception. Yet Republicans also fight contraception tooth and nail. What they are really about is imposing their fundamentalist religious beliefs on others and punishing those who resist.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Accurate Abortion Terminology
To have a sensible debate on abortion, we must insist on accurate scientific terminology. A fertilised or unfertilised egg is not a child. Partial birth abortion is a deliberately misleading term to suggest hacking a baby to death when it is partly clear of the vagina during birth. We should use the clearer term third trimester abortion. A baby is a human shortly after birth. If you deliberately and dishonestly misuse terms, you will be misunderstood and create needless contention.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Americans who go livid at the abortion of an 8-cell embryo would be a lot more convincing if they did not stand up and patriotically cheer the torture and murder of 10 year olds in Iraq.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Anti-Abortion, Not Pro Life
The abortion debate becomes more clear cut when you realise that the anti-abortion folk are motivated purely by religious motives and they are trying to force their religious beliefs on others. I call them anti-abortionist because they are not pro-life. They could care less about the life of the mother or the life of the baby after it is born. They want hospitals to refuse to perform abortions even when the mother’s life is threatened. They even want hospitals to refuse to tell women whose life is in danger because of pregnancy complications where they can get help. They are not about protecting life but about punishing women who have unwanted pregnancies.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Birth Certificates for the Unborn
Pro-lifers have come up with yet another idea to force their religious beliefs on others, namely their unsubstantiated superstition that disembodied consciousnesses called souls enter and possess fertilised eggs at conception making them instantly completely equivalent to a fully grown adult.
They even want birth certificates issued to stillborn babies. The stillborns don’t get matching death certificates, so the wishful thinking is they live forever, creating a ID-theft nightmare. The mothers claim they want these certificates as sentimental keepsakes. That is not the function of a birth certificate. A birth certificate is an official primary lifetime ID and attestation to new life. It costs the government perhaps $100 to process. Stillborns don’t need ID. They don’t get inoculations, go to school, learn to drive etc. Keepsakes are a great idea, but the government should not be in the business of bronzing baby shoes. Surely religious groups can provide much more suitable keepsakes to aid parents over their grief.
I don’t trust or believe those promoting this crazy idea. I think what they are really up to is trying to block abortions by legally defining 12 week olds as being legally already born because they already have birth certificates, even before they leave the womb. Issuing birth certificates to the unborn is even more goofy and illogical than providing separate death certificates for individual limbs lost in war because a soldier wanted his loss honoured. The pro-lifers are unscrupulous holding up the mothers of stillborn children as emotional hostages in the abortion debate. Nobody wants to pile further emotional pain on parents who have gone through that and nobody wants to give in to religious fruitcakes using those parents either.
If such a birth certificate is ever issued, it should state that the baby was stillborn and that this certificate is not valid as ID for any living person. It would be foolish to create birth certificates ideal for criminal use out of sentimental or political motives.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69) source
fertilised egg fertilised egg
The strict anti-abortion argument is not only favoured by the religious, it is a purely religious argument. It depends on belief in the soul. Unfortunately, movies have made the soul seem real. There is no way you can claim a blastula is a full human being unless you imagine a little homunculus soul living inside it. It is not even as advanced as a rotifer in pond scum. I don’t think the average person has any idea how tiny a blastula is whose murder supposedly requires vigilante action.
I don’t think the public realises how infrequently blastulas carry on to become babies. Perhaps Christians should put the mother on the rack for murder every time one fails to develop. In their anti-abortion propaganda Christians show babies just prior to birth, to persuade people to ban even the morning after pill. We need to show them what a fertilised egg or blastula looks like. The images to the right of a fertilised egg and a blastula (bigger next stage of development) are what all the fuss is about. You need a microscope to see them. They have none of the characteristics of babies, no pulse, no nerves, no limbs, no eyes, no mouth… They are all but indistinguishable from the eggs and blastulas of fish. This is what anti-abortionists are killing doctors over. It is as silly as putting women in jail for expelling unfertilised eggs in their monthly periods on the grounds they too are potential life or putting teenage boys in jail on the same grounds for spilling their seed. This is religious hogwash.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
People imagine that right after conception you have a tiny perfect baby waving its little arms about. This is simply not true. What you have is much closer to a microscopic spec of pond scum without a brain, without even a nervous system not even as alive as a fly. It makes no sense to treat it as if it were a fully formed human.
Christians believe is an imaginary liquid called the soul that enters bodies when they are only one cell. All their beliefs surrounding birth and death involve this imaginary soul. They talk about it so much they forget it does not actually exist, it was just some primitive speculation. They tell silly lies like science has weighed it. This imaginary soul is what gives a single cell full-human status.
The bible takes an extreme view on the human status of fetuses. A fetus is not a human until one month after birth.
As for giving the fetus exalted status based on potential, every sperm and egg has potential. Every stem cell has potential. In theory, every cell has potential. Monty Python spoofed this in the Every Sperm is Sacred song.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Blocking Rapist Reproduction
It is important to ensure rape never results in propagation. Otherwise you create a Darwinian drift, so as in ducks, rape gradually becomes the norm. There should be no interference with contraception, the morning after pill or abortion to ensure such rapes do not succeed in pregnancy. I doubt this is politically possible, but I think rape should be punished in addition by vasectomy and possibly even chemical castration when the victim were seriously beaten.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Breaching the Wall Between Church and State
The Republicans have been hacking down the separation between church and state with their attacks on both abortion and contraception. What they want is for any religious bigot to be able to impose his religious beliefs on others by interfering with a woman’s access to abortion and contraception. Women meekly accepted the abortion restrictions, out of fear of fanatics, but are digging in their heels on contraception. Most women of child bearing age, including Catholics, use it. Given how much of a burden an unwanted or unaffordable child puts on the state, it is bewildering the Republicans are trying to force this measure down women’s throats when Republicans claim to be the party of liberty and fiscal restraint. What they are doing is not only an attack on the liberty of women, it is an attack on the liberty of men to jointly decide when and how many children to have. The Republicans try to frame this debate as protecting the liberty of bigots, but it is obvious what liberty they are talking about — the liberty to force their religion on others.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
The Catholic church owns the majority of hospitals in the USA. They impose religious superstition on the medicine practiced there:
- No abortions under any circumstances, even to save the mother’s life. They would sooner both baby and mother die than mother survive. This should be considered murder.
- No contraception.
- No sterilisation.
They have no business imposing Catholic superstitions on non-Catholics, especially when the procedures are financed by government health care.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
One in six hospitals in the USA are owned by the Catholic church. They impose Catholic dogma on all patients, Catholic or not. In particular, they refuse to let doctors perform an abortion to save a mother’s life even if the alternative is to lose the life of both mother and child. Needlessly killing a woman, to me, is murder, but the Catholics don’t see it that way. This is utterly irrational, even if you believe the fetus has greater right to life than the mother. This is so nuts, surely it should be declared unconstitutional.
Surely imposing any religious dogmas should be unconstitutional.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Catholics are bloody hypocrites when it comes to contraception and abortion. They happily approve of artificial insemination creating thousands of fertilised eggs, putting them in a freezer, to await the first inevitable power failure that kills them all. Yet they claim every blastula is sacred and that killing it in any other context is a mortal sin. The Catholic church does not really give a damn about the blastulas. What they want is more Catholic babies whether their parents want them or not. More babies means more money in the church coffers.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Catholics and Contraception
Catholics get upset about masturbation because it wastes sperm. Contraceptives, especially in the third world, let women plan their families to give birth to no more than they can feed, to have them in times of plenty. Birds evaluate the food supply and adjust the number of eggs they lay to match. Why can’t humans be at least as sensible? If you have too many children, all will die at the next epidemic.
Condoms also prevent AIDS (Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome). If you are interested in preserving life what point is there in creating tons of it that will soon die taking away resources from older children?
Avoiding contraception does not even make sense in the demonically possessed science of the Catholics. Contraception is just a more pleasant form of masturbation. Nothing dies but the sperm cells which would die anyway.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
There is something off about Christians preaching anti-abortion and the sanctity of life when they kill people by cheerleading war, interfering with sex education and leaving the homeless to fend for themselves, opposing school lunches and blocking universal medical care for children. They refuse even to promote responsible contraception, which would make abortion unnecessary. They just want yet another excuse to punish. This time the scapegoats are women who get pregnant without meaning to.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
I speak as someone who has received over 3000 death threats. Why would someone who actually intended to kill you register their phone number to be investigated as a potential culprit? Why would they warn you they were coming? More worrisome are anti-abortionist style terrorists who broadcast your address and schedule and encourage other whackos to bump you off, like Lowell Green.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Christianity Inspires Procrastination
The pro-Christianity Vision channel aired a documentary about how Christianity made a small town come together for a noble cause. A child, Theresa Johnson, had disappeared, presumed sexually assaulted. The town’s people gathered in the church to pray, sitting on their butts, smugly congratulating themselves for their caring, instead of getting out to search for her.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Dark Ages Revival
We know what happens when you let Christians impose their religion on everyone. We call that time when science was suppressed, gays were burned alive, abortion and contraception were illegal and heresy was a capital offence, the dark ages. Americans appear to be withdrawing from the world to retreat into a neo dark age cocoon of self-imposed ignorance and squalor.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Republicans talk all the time about the importance of defending freedoms. Yet when it comes to abortion and birth control, they want to put the government firmly in control. Perhaps they mean the freedom to bully women.
Part of the problem is Republicans have befuddled themselves referring to a single cell, with all the cosmic significance of a bit of sloughed off skin, as a baby.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Democrats vs RepublicansIf you watch American politics, you see trends. Neither party is pro-environment, but the Democrats are more pro than the Republicans. Similarly on other issues.
Comparing Democrats and Republicans Democrats
environment business peace war international law imperialism religious pluralism imposing Christianity
the poor the rich borrowers banks unions corporations legal abortion illegal abortion clean energy fossil fuels minorities old fat white men
I could see a few billionaires favouring the Republican agenda, but surely everyone else would find them repulsive. How is it possible the Republicans can win even one seat? The Republicans do it by tricking people into voting against their own self interest.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Denying Freedom of Religion
When bigots deny the women the right to abortion, what they are actually doing is trying to force their religion’s superstitious notions of science on others. They do not respect the constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Whenever anti-abortionists say that the famous abortion doctor, Dr. Morgentaler, murdered babies, this is delusional. Do they have any idea what a blastula looks like or how microscopic it is? It is not a baby! It is not even as human as a jellyfish, not even as human as a water flea. Further, murder is a technical term meaning unlawful killing. Yet their complaint is that what Morgentaler did was not unlawful. Their complaint is thus self contradictory. Creationists were never big on logic or precision in language.
They may, for religious reasons, consider killing a blastula equally wicked to killing a baby, but it is most definitely not literally baby killing. That is demented. Their reasons for objecting are superstitious, based on the belief in a soul (ghost) possessing the fertilised egg at conception. This is a purely religious notion without even a scintilla of evidence to support it. Christians should not be permitted to impose their religious superstitions on others, especially when they jail or murder them as a consequence.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Women who drink should use birth control until they are ready to conceive, then abstain from alcohol. If they get pregnant while binge drinking they should abort and try again without alcohol. Pro-lifers want such women instead not to use birth control, but instead to give birth to fetal alcohol syndrome children. Pro-lifer is a misnomer — condemning children to a lifetime of disability.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Every Sperm is Sacred
If abortion is murder as Catholics claim, then so is a male having an orgasm. Far more potential human beings perish. Every egg is sacred is just as silly as Monty Python’s every sperm is sacred. Catholics apparently have no idea just how small an egg is — far too small to see. They must imagine it is something like a chick in a shell because after all, it is an egg. Yet they mindlessly spout Abortion is murder to egg on folk like Scott Roeder to murder doctors like Dr. George Tiller.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Extreme Pro Lifers
Catholics are so fanatical they try to block birth control even for people carrying a fatal genetic disease like Huntingdon’s.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
There are now more female than male voters in the USA, but politicians continue to address the public as though they were entirely male. Even if a women does not want to use birth control or abortion, surely she does not want to be bullied into making that choice.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Pro-lifers are utter hypocrites when it comes to the sanctity of single-cell life.
- The death of hundreds of thousands of unused fertilised eggs used in fertility treatments gives them no pause.
- They will happily murder an abortionist.
- The loss of cells from bleeding or defecating does not bother them in the least.
- They will happily torture animals in the production of their food.
Their obsession is solely in cranking up the earth’s population, preferably with Christians and within that preferably with Catholics. The well-being of the child or the mother or the planet matters not a whit to them. They want babies so badly that they want them fathered by rape. They want them born into abusive homes. They want them born where there is no money to feed them. They want them born where they are completely unwanted. Pro-lifers are sick callous fucks.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
There are hundreds of thousands of frozen embryos, each too small to see with the naked eye, a side effect of fertility treatments. They obviously will never be implanted. They will be eventually discarded. Christians object to them being used for stem cell research on the grounds they potentially could be implanted to grow to form a human. That is also true of a sperm cell. When then not hold that every sperm is sacred as well? Christians think it somehow more dignified to discard the cells. I for one, if I were a fetus, would far sooner my tiny body gave life to another than to be tossed away as useless garbage.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Futility of Violence
People keep resorting to violence even though they have ample evidence it is nearly always counter productive. Scott Roeder gunned down Dr. George Tiller, a doctor who performed legal abortions and in the process discredited the pro-life movement as a bunch of lunatics. Theodore Kaczynski mailed bombs to people, thus discrediting the environmental movement as crazies. The Hutaree Christian Militia plotted to kill police officers at a funeral and in the process discredited the entire militia, pro-gun and to some extent fundamentalist Christian movements. The Jews bombed and strafed Palestinian settlements, thus creating an endless ping pong revenge spiral. The Americans attacked both Afghanistan and Iraq both illegally and under false pretences. Just prior to the wars, almost all of the world was pro-American. Afterwards, pretty much the opposite. White supremacists gunned down Dr. Martin Luther King, turning him into a saint whose words and deeds are never questioned. There are plenty of extremely evil people on the planet such as Dick Cheney, Charles Koch (billionaire global warming disinformation funder), Robert Mugabe, Rush Limbaugh, Peter Sutherland (BP CEO (Chief Executive Officer) ) etc. There is no doubt the planet would be much better off if they did not exist, but getting rid of them by violence would simply backfire. They need to be non-violently discredited and disempowered.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Getting Freedom Requires Giving Freedom
I would have thought that by now Americans would have caught on, that if you want freedom of religion, you have to give others freedom of religion. If you don’t want others imposing their religion on you, you can’t forcefully impose your religion on them. Mitt Romney is thoroughly confused on this point. He claims Obama is interfering with his religious freedom by offering contraception and abortion services to the public, even though he and his spouse are free to do whatever they want. It is not as though Obama is making contraception or abortion mandatory. What Romney means is Obama is interfering with his attempts to impose his Mormon religion on others. If Mitt gets his way and makes contraception and abortion illegal, he will be imposing his whacko Mormon beliefs about soul-spirit possession of blastulas and their sacredness on rational people, who reject it as utter nonsense with not a shred of evidence to support it.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
The human body is made of trillions of cells, but for allegedly religious reasons, some people single out gametes and fertilised eggs as holy as if they were fully-formed beings with rights surpassing those in whose bodies they live. Oddly, their religions do not even acknowledge the existence of cells.
I don’t think these people have any idea how small cells are. It makes no sense to kill a fully formed human made of trillions of cells for the benefit of one cell. It is sillier than annihilating the population of earth to save a tadpole.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Christians claim they are deeply concerned about the life of blastulas, consisting of just a few cells, far too small to see. They want those that harm them executed. Yet American Christians demand their country reduce foreign aid to the lowest of any developed country. They don’t want to spend even the pennies a day it would take to protect the world’s children from easily treatable fatal diseases like diarrhoea or measles. They don’t really care about children. They just want to scapegoat women who have abortions for religious pleasure.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Identify the Fetus
Anti-abortionists sometimes kill those who kill fetuses like those above. Can you tell which one is human and which a cat?~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
If JWs (Jehovah’s Witnesses) behaved like Catholics
Jehovah Witnesses believe that blood transfusions are deeply wicked and that one should die, or allow one’s child to die, rather than accept one. Imagine if J.W.s behaved like the pro-lifers and burst into hospitals and interfered with the transfusions of non-JWs. That’s what pro-lifers do, only they sometimes kill the doctors and bystander patients too. We simply would not permit one group to impose its religious beliefs on others. The same should apply for abortion religious fanatics. We had centuries in Europe of religious groups trying to impose their beliefs on others. The fathers of Canada and the USA understood this and decided that sort of bigotry simply could not be tolerated. We have freedom of religion, which includes freedom from anyone else’s religion being imposed on us.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Ignoring The Facts
It drives me to distraction when Americans have debates about social policy, such as drug enforcement, gun control, abortion, DADT (Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell), gay marriage… The debaters all spin tales about what would happen if various policies were instituted. They all speak as if their prognostications had 100% certainty. They never once refer to actual experience in history, or in other countries about what actually does happen. They seem to think America here is now is a totally unique case.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Imposing Christian Superstition
The Christian opposition to abortion is odd. Their bible approves of abortion. It even gives instructions for a potion to induce one. And further it says the status as a human begins one month after birth. Their opposition is based on the Christian superstition that a soul enters the fertilised egg at conception. This too is strange since the discovery of conception had to await the invention of the microscope many centuries after the founding of Christianity. It is just a recent superstition. Further the Christian opposition to abortion has no rationality. The fertilised egg is less human than a piece of pond scum. The opposition amounts to forcing Christianity on non-Christians. Christian superstitions have no place being enforced in law. Any laws regulating abortion should be based on reason.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Inconsistent Support for Life
The arguments of those who wish to make abortion illegal or who applaud vigilante assassinating of abortion doctors would be more persuasive if these people did not invariably also support capital punishment, illegal wars, withdrawing medical care and food from the indigent and abolishing birth control and sex education. They claim to be Christian but their life philosophy is the antithesis of the sermon on the mount.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
There is something massively hypocritical about pro-life extremists deeply concerned even about human life even at the amoeba stage expressing no concern at all for the 250 adults and children killed each day by gunfire in the USA.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
The Key To The Abortion Debate
The most important question about abortion is Is the soul real?. There is no evidence for it though it is a long-held Christian assumption. If it is not real, there is no reason to treat a human fetus when it is at a stage less complex than a protozoan in pond scum as it if were a fully developed human. It should be unconstitutional to enforce religious superstitions about abortion on non-believers.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Legal Rights of the Very Young
If a blastula has the same legal rights as an adult human, then surely a male infant should have the implied legal right to stop his parents from cutting off the tip of his penis without consent or anaesthesia. If somebody opposes abortion without also opposing circumcision, they are a hypocrite. It is also hypocritical to oppose female circumcision without also opposing male circumcision.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Life Begins at Conception
Christians mistakenly believe that a person exists from the moment of conception. Oddly, they invented this idea from a muddled scientific understanding of how DNA (Deoxyribonucleic Acid) fuses at conception. Prior to that, Christians taught that life begins at quickening, when the soul first enters the body, at the time the mother can first feel the baby move.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Life Does Not Literally BeginStephen Woodworth MP (Member of Parliament) with the Conservative Party of Canada wants to debate when life begins and expressed a hope science could provide a definitive answer. This shows a woeful lack of understanding of how human reproduction works. To science, the question is meaningless because it is a metaphysical question. Contrary to religious teaching, life does not begin with each new child! For life to begin, non-living ingredients would have to spring to life. This does not happen. Reproduction is a dance of already living cells splitting and recombining. The cells themselves are as old as life itself. A new human gradually comes into being, is born and continues development outside the womb.
Bestowing upon a fetus the status as a human being is an arbitrary legal or religious rite, like being assigned a SIN (Social Insurance Number) number, a bar mitzvah or attaining the right to vote. Different cultures celebrate attaining human status ranging from the date of the mother’s last period to the child’s 21st birthday. For Conservatives, it marks the date when contraception/abortion/infanticide is no longer legal. What the Conservatives are doing is like asking when the continuous cycle of seasons truly begins. It is a meaningless question. The cycle does not begin. You can assign an arbitrary point, like Jan 1, in the cycle, but you could just as well pick any other day.
My own way of looking at it is this. Becoming human is not a single definite event. It is something that gradually evolves over decades. As this process progresses we accord more and more privilege to the being. The exact dates when we provide protection from abortion, allow the vote, parental emancipation, the right to consent to sex, the right to marry, the right to drive, etc. are all just approximations to what the consensus feels they should be.
As to the particular question about when contraception/abortion is permissible I am more liberal than most. To me, considering a blastula holy is like considering a facial mole (which is much bigger) holy. They are both just tiny masses of cells. Neither can think or react as if feeling pain. It is much more primitive than a jellyfish at that stage. It does not even have any nerve cells. Treating these microscopic blobs of cells as equivalent in importance and privilege to full grown humans is a crazy religious idea, dependent on the belief in souls and as such should not be imposed on non-believers. It is as silly as worshiping clams.
I think a practical dividing line that even pro-choice people would find acceptable would be Could this fetus/infant survive outside the womb? If it can, it deserves protection. As technology develops, the protection would be extended to younger and younger infants.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Meddling in Medicine
Arizona has passed a law requiring an ultrasound 24 hours prior to an abortion. This does not make sense. If ultrasounds are needed, you would think the best time to do them would be just prior to the abortion. Why do medically unnecessary ultrasounds at all? What a waste of money! Politicians have no right to tell physicians how to do their work. Politicians have no medical training. They are incompetent to meddle. This is a dangerous precedent. These are religious crazies imposing their religious superstitions on others.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Mike Pence on Abortion
Mike Pence’s view on abortion comes directly from his religion beliefs. There is no science in them at all. They are based on a mythical soul demonically possessing an egg at conception. He imagines he has the right to impose his religious beliefs on others. The constitution guarantees freedom of religion. It is supposed to block Mr. Pence from doing that.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Mother vs Fetus
The every sperm is sacred crowd are causing some irrational decisions when the health of the mother and the health of a fetus are in conflict.
~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
- They are working on the stone age concept that all breeding is good. The production of the maximal number of babies is the right and proper goal in life as if we were dealing with salmon. Churches push this nutty view because that is how they gain new contributors to fleece.
- They ignore the fact the mother may have other children to care for and responsibilities to the community. If she dies, it is a much bigger catastrophe than if a fetus does.
- They ignore the fact that fetuses are delicate things and are prone to spontaneously aborting. It does not make sense to make heroic sacrifices to save something that could easily die anyway.
- They ignore the fact that if the mother lives, she may have several more children. If you kill her off to save the fetus, she will have none.
- They ignore the fact that society has invested a huge amount of money and effort in the mother in food, care and education. It is crazy to compare her life as equal to one more undeveloped than a jellyfish.
- They ignore the fact that if you kill the mother to save the fetus, that child will grow up without a mother and with the guilt of having murdered her mother.
- They are acting as though they were trading off the life of a toddler vs a nonegenarian, as if the mother’s life were effectively over anyway and the life of the fetus were absolutely assured.
Motive for Abortion
61% of women getting abortions already have children. Why are women doing that? For the same reason animals commit infanticide or abort. She can’t take on the burden of another child without compromising the health and safety of her existing children. Ironically, it is a pro-life act.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Given than about 50% of fetuses abort naturally, usually with the woman never even noticing she was pregnant, the fanaticism of the anti-abortionists seems excessive.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Natural human morality insists that one not harm an infant. That is why anti-abortion forces like to refer to a fertilised egg, blastula or fetus as a baby.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
No Abortions, No Exceptions
The Tea Party candidates have said they want to repeal Roe v. Wade and make abortion illegal with absolutely no exceptions. If they truly mean what they say, they would force the pre-teen daughter raped by her father during a Satanic ritual, bearing a Downs syndrome fetus, who had a metabolic incompatibility with the fetus that would kill her, to give birth to the child. If you take the Tea Party candidates literally, they would insist on a natural birth even if the fetus were dead and petrifying.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
On The fence
I used to be on the fence on the abortion issue. Both sides were convincing. The only way out I could see would be technology to reduce the need for abortion (e.g. completely reliable conception). Oddly, the pro-lifers also opposed contraception, sex education and condoms for sexually transmitted disease avoidance which I saw as pillars to obviate abortion. Further, the dishonesty, viciousness, self-righteousness, misleading terminology, misleading images, religious superstition and general irrationality of the pro-life forces convinced me I needed to fight their improper tactics. So I had to get off the fence to promote a nuanced rational debate.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
I saw a Pro-Life ad claiming that without contraception and abortion there would be three times as many people. I think that is an exaggeration. They saw these missing people as a terrible thing. They don’t seem to understand the earth already has four times more people than it can sustain. We would have no place to put all those people. We would not have food or water for them. It would be a nightmare.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
The abortion protests make about as much sense as PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) screaming murderer! butcher! and throwing buckets of blood at a woman eating a boiled egg that potentially could have become a chicken. It is a phony issue. It is just an excuse for righteous indignation and feeling superior, much like opposing gay marriage.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Even though there is theoretically separation of church and state in the USA, Christians are treated specially:
~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
- They are allowed to do political campaigning from the pulpit. Other churches are not.
- They are allowed to call for murder and persecution of homosexuals. Formerly, they were allowed to call for the murder and persecution of blacks.
- They are increasingly permitted to force Christian teaching on abortion on the general population.
- They are permitted to force Christian beliefs about sex education on not only American children, but children all over the world, even though doing that results in increased illegitimate pregnancy and STDs (Sexually Transmitted Diseases).
Partial Birth Abortion
Another deceptive term favoured by the pro-lifers is partial birth abortion which conjures up a surgeon stabbing a infant half way out the vagina, in the heart with a long pointed stainless steel probe. It just means third trimester abortion.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Penalty for Murder
What should be the penalty for killing this precious creation of god to the right:
- 10 years in jail
- a $1000 fine
If you picked other than (6), you are quite a nature lover. You would turn in your neighbour for killing a slug embryo.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Pope Abortion Stance
Here are my requests of Pope Francis to clarify his position on abortion:
~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
- Would he kindly instruct the flock to stop using dishonest vocabulary, e.g. baby for a one-celled fetus, or partial term abortion for any third term abortion. The term deceptively sounds like aborting during the last stages of labour.
- If he means to force 12 years olds to risk their lives to give birth, let him say so explicitly.
- If doctors say that a woman will die giving birth, please prepare a video with Pope Francis personally explaining to her why she needs to die rather than sacrifice some lump of cells so small you can’t see them without microscope.
- If he means forcing a 13 year old rape victim to give birth, let him say so explicitly.
- Most of the time, in the natural reproductive cycle, fertilised eggs do not implant. If the pope means that anything to change those odds of implanting is murder, let him say so explicitly.
- If a father impregnates his 9 year old daughter, if you demand she give birth and risk her life, and risk delivering a genetically deformed child, please state that explicitly.
- If condoms are a form of abortion, let the old goat make the claim out loud so we can laugh at him. If condoms are a form of abortion then so are wet dreams and masturbation.
- If the infant has no brain, or has a disease that will cause extreme torment, if the pope means he must be born only to die, let him say so explicitly.
- Stop accusing the pro-choice movement of lying, persecution and murder. Those are the tactics of the pro-lifers.
- Please take a university level course on human reproduction and embryology. It is criminal to be leading so many people in such abysmal ignorance.
Pro Life Inconsistency
I find it odd that anti-abortionists who consider it a capital crime to kill even a single cell zygote, are so keen on soldiers killing adults and children. It is also irrational that they consider it mandatory to kill the trillions of cells that make up a doctor to save the life of a single cell fertilised egg.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Pro Life is a Religion
Pro lifers are not in the least shy about admitting their opposition to abortion is based solely on their religious beliefs. They wish to impose these religious beliefs on others. They don’t understand just how wrong that is. It is a violation of the fundamental freedom of religion. In return for the freedom to practice your religion as you see fit, you must agree to allow others to do likewise. Christians imagine they are a special case who have a special right to impose on others.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Pro Lifers Lack Common Sense
I can easily understand someone opposing abortion, but when they want to make medical abortion impossible, even for rape and incest, I wonder if they have spent any time at all thinking about the issue from the women’s point of view and the child’s point of view. They have no compassion and no common sense. Their goal is mean-spirited, to punish the women by forcing them to use septic back room abortions.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
The so called pro-life people should be called pro-abortion prohibition. Making abortion illegal does not make it go away any more than alcohol or marijuana prohibition made alcohol and drugs disappear. It just means abortions are performed illegally and incompetently. The real choice is between legal abortions and illegal back alley abortions, not abortions or no abortions.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Pro-Life = Pro-War
Most pro-life advocates, such as Bill O’Reilly are anything but pro-life. They are invariably pro-war. They have no interest in the welfare of babies or children. They hoot like a band of chimpanzees calling for the blood of abortionists or gays or blacks or immigrants or… They posture that they hold the high moral ground. They pretend to be advocates for law and order, yet cheer on abortion clinic bombers. They claim they want to reduce abortion, yet block adoption, contraception, sex education or any other measure that would reduce the need for abortion. They are murderers as surely as any Muslim cleric putting out a fatwa. They are motivated by a lust for persecuting and controlling others, including women. Their self-righteous hypocrisy makes me vomit.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Pro-Life = Shoving Bible Down Throats
The anti-abortion people are not at all shy about admitting their objection to abortion is completely bible based. They are thus admitting they are attempting to force their religious beliefs on others. Constitutional freedom of religion forbids that. They have no more right to do that than force people to drink Jesus’s magic blood. Of course, they have as much right as anyone else to lobby for making abortion illegal on non-religious grounds. The same is true for their opposition to gay marriage.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Pro-lifers offer a silly argument for why you should not abort zygotes (single cell formed at conception). I am not arguing for killing zygotes. I just hope to demolish a silly argument for not killing them. Pro-lifers claim a zygote contains human DNA, so it has protected status that no other cell in the body does. Yet, it is perfectly legal to kill any other cell in the body, even though they too all have a complete complement of DNA. If you want to treat zygotes with privileged status, it can’t be based on something ordinary cells also have.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Pro-Life for Newborns
If the anti-abortion folk were truly pro-life as they claim, their concern would not precipitously disappear the instant the baby were born.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
I have always been somewhat on the fence of the abortion issue. I can appreciate both point of view, but I have just realised that one side is being deceptive. The anti-abortion people have not been honest about the motive for their opposition. It is not a moral question as they pretend. It is a question of religious dogma. Christians believe in souls and that souls inhabit fertilised eggs or fetuses. Given there is no way to detect a soul and given souls are almost certainly fictitious, there is no way to determine how soon after conception souls seize possession of a human body. So what this abortion debate is really about is forcing non-Christians to accept this loony tunes soul theory complete with possession timetable. Souls are why Christians give blastulas exalted status, not because they are potential humans, not because life is sacred. Anti-abortion fervor is really about Christians imposing their idiotic religious dogma on others.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Punishment for Blastocystocide
What should be the punishment for killing this precious creation of god to the right:
- 10 years in jail
- a $1000 fine
If you picked other than (6), you are quite a nature lover. You would turn in your neighbour for killing a mosquito larva.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Religious Beliefs About Abortion
Christians hold some religious beliefs they mistake as science. For example, they believe a soul enters the body at conception. They believe life starts at conception. They believe the soul leaves the body at death and goes off to an infinite afterlife, most commonly of eternal torture, according to the bible.
From these religious beliefs come Christian attitudes to abortion, e.g. that abortion at any stage is wicked, even to save the life of the mother. Oddly, these beliefs also justify denying contraception, even to those whose spouse has AIDS.
From science’s point of view, there is no evidence for a soul. Life does not begin; it is continuous. Living sperm and egg join to form a living zygote. There is no springing forth of life from non-living matter. Life always grows continuously out of previous life. A zygote is just an ordinary cell, no more grandiose or privileged than a blood cell. Worshipping zygotes as if they were living babies is a bit of religious nuttiness. A zygote is almost identical to a bit of pond scum. It cannot see, eat, think, feel, move… It is not nearly as human as a tadpole.
Christians insist on forcing their religious beliefs about abortion on non-Christians. They don’t realise (or don’t care) they are violating freedom of religion of the constitution.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
When a Catholic sees a 1 cm (0.39 in) long fetus, he does not see a creature almost identical to a tadpole. He sees an embodied soul with a complex inner life. There is no evidence for this. It is just projection based on religious belief. When he sees a blastula through a microscope, he does not see a creature indistinguishable from plankton. He imagines an embodied soul with a complex inner life. When he sees an unfertilised egg, he does not see a body cell like any other, e.g. a liver cell or a sperm cell or blood cell. He goes all gooey and imagines he is looking at a newborn baby. He even insists on calling it a baby. These games of the imagination drive people to extreme evil, killing and imprisoning mothers.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
In the middle ages, religious superstition manifested as witch trials. In our own day, it manifests as harassing abortion doctors who allegedly kill invisible, undetectable souls.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Republican Rights for Animals
If Republicans ever become interested in animal rights, their family values concerning abortion and the age of consent could morph into a zealous campaign to ban egg-eating and consuming poultry that did not die of old age.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Reverse Slippery Slop
When Roe vs. Wade was enacted in 1973, Christians told us that this was a slippery slope and legal abortion would lead to increased infanticide, euthanasia of the handicapped then widespread murder and genocide. Yet all these ills are now less prevalent, so the Christians ability to forecast the future is about as accurate as their ability to predict the end of the world or the return of Jesus. Ironically, abortion too has reduced.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Sanctity of Life
If you truly believed in the sanctity of life, you would work to protect all life, including fetuses and the unborn under assault by alcohol, drugs or malnutrition. You would work to ensure that children not die from malnutrition or lack of shelter, that your country not send soldiers off to pointless wars. You would help when disasters or famines strike those in other parts of the globe. But the so-called pro-lifers don’t do this. All compassion goes out the window once a child in born. Thus most of the anti-abortion people are not sincere. If they looked in their hearts, they would discover what they primarily want is the right to hate and feel virtuous about it. They are similarly motivated to the homophobic and racist bigots.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
In Canada, Punjabi-speaking women, after they have had two female children, invariably resort to artificial insemination to have a third male child. I object to this on two grounds:
- It is wrong to upset the overall male-female balance. If you create too many males, they will not be able to find wives. They will resort to prostitution. Society will be more violent.
- Our planet is extremely overpopulated. No one should be having more than two children.
I think we need policies like this:
~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
- Sex selection should be illegal.
- Artificial insemination should be either illegal or highly taxed (e.g. $100,000) if a couple already has two or more children.
- All income tax deductions and day case subsidies should not apply to child 3 or more.
Through a slight of hand, using the fact that so many people have swallowed the religious superstition of souls, the Catholic church has managed to frame the abortion debate as though it were about the murder of adult humans. What they mean is dislodging imaginary souls. From a scientific perspective, at that early stage, a human is no more grandiose than a blood cell and its life does not begin in any sense of non-living ingredients coming together to form something alive. All that happens is pre-existing cells divide and recombine and die. Catholics are so vain. They claim that the entire universe was created just for their pleasure. No wonder they imagine human cellular reproduction deserves to be accompanied by the sound of trumpets and can only occur via inscrutable holy magic. This debate is really about Catholics getting their evidence-free soul theory enforced in law. It is really about demanding maximum fecundity to swell the coffers of the church. How do you know? The church applauds killing embryos as a side effect of in-vitro fertilisation. It is hard to have an honest debate when the church refuses to admit why it actually opposes abortion.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Sponges are Human
The anti-abortion argument boils down to this. Single celled-animals and multicelled animals that are roughly as developed as sponges should have equal legal rights with adult humans.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
The Stupid Do The Dirty Work
Scott Roeder, a man of low I.Q, said that he murdered Dr. George Tiller because he believed Dr. Tiller was going to murder a large number of children the next day. Fanatics had convinced him that performing an abortion and murdering a child were exactly the same act. Second and third term abortions, the type Dr. Tiller specialised in, are only done when the mothers’ life or health is endangered, or the fetus is dead or so ill it could not survive birth. The fanatics put no value on the mother’s life and do not take into consideration the fetus’s viability.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Babies are viable little humans. Babies are almost never aborted. What are aborted is blastulas. They resemble pond scum, almost identical to young mosquitos. Some day they might be babies, but they most certainly are not yet, any more than sperm cells or menstrually excreted eggs are. Right wingers deliberately confuse themselves by talking about unborn babies.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Unconditional Ban on Abortion
Rick Santorum believes there are no conditions whatsoever that make an abortion medically necessary. How about natural death of the fetus or gangrene in the fetus. Does Mr. Santorum want the fetus left inside to fester and rot? It is insane to kill both mother and fetus to avoid an abortion for ideological reasons.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
Unpopular Tea Party
Robert D. Putnam, a professor of public policy at Harvard and David E. Campbell, a political scientist at Notre Dame, have studied the Tea Party members over the years. They discovered two things:
~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
- The Tea Party is highly unpopular, ranking even lower that atheists and Muslims.
- The Tea Party have world views most people find repulsive. They discriminate against blacks, gays and immigrants. They want evangelical Christianity forced on everyone using the government. They want to eliminate choice in abortion.
What should be the revenge for killing this precious creation of god to the right:
- 10 years in jail
- a $1000 fine
If you picked other than (6), you are quite a nature lover. You would turn in your neighbour for killing a jellyfish blastula.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
When Does Life Begin?
The question of when does life begin, is from science’s point view, was billions of years ago. Life is a continuous stream of cells, splitting and combining. All the cells in your body are billions of years old, if you follow back the splittings. You were formed by a living egg and a living sperm joining. At no point in your conception did dead matter spring to life. When does a particular human life begin is actually meaningless to science. It is a religious and legal question and is a disguised way of framing what sorts of abortion should be illegal.
Conservative MP Stephen Woodworth, sponsored a private member’s bill to debate exactly when in pregnancy life begins. He does not realise the question is meaningless because it did not begin anywhere during pregnancy.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
When Life Begins
The Jewish tradition grants full personhood only 30 days after birth. This was because infanticide prior to that point was common. This is quite different from the view modern day Christians claim their god holds.~ Roedy (born:1948-02-04 age:69)
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